theme 6- fate and the gods

Question 1

the presentation and roles of fate

Answer 1

Homeric fate is not all-encompassing. It deals only with death/destruction, either of individuals or of communities. It is unavoidable, as expressed clearly in a metaphor of Book 4: ‘Fate shackled Diores’ – followed quickly by the man’s death.

Question 2

fate in book 9

Answer 2

A confusing aspect of Homer’s presentation of Fate arises in Book 9, where we are confronted with the two fates of Achilles. Think about this for a moment and it should be clear that this doesn’t make much sense. As such, it requires some explanation. GRAZIOSI thinks that Achilles – the only source for the idea that Achilles has two fates – is simply deluding himself.

Question 3

roman critic longinus on the depiction of the gods

Answer 3

'’homer has done his best to make the men in the iliad gods and the gods mem’’

Question 4

xenophonies critic on the perception of the gods

Answer 4

'’homer and hesiod have attributed to the gods all things that are shameful and a reproach: thevery, adultry and deception of one and other’’

Question 5

functions of the gods to explain why they’re depicted this way

Answer 5

• as explanations of natural phenomena (zees thunderbolts)
  -acting as personification (Aphrodite sex and lust/Ares god of war)
  -receivers of human sacrifice

Question 6

gods acting as parental figures

Answer 6

-achillies asking his mum Thetis to supplicate zeus, ‘‘remind zeus of this now and sit beside him, take his knees asking that it may be his will to bring aid to the trojans’’ (book 1)
-zeus reaction to his son sarpidon death

Question 7

the roles of fate, to create tragedy

Answer 7

This is clearly the case in Homer’s use of fate in the build-up to Patroclus’ death in Book 16. Fate’s unavoidability gives poetic nicety to Homer’s tragic foreshadowing. We also see this elsewhere, e.g., with the death of Hector, Book 22 (Zeus’ scales

Question 8

the roles of fate, to point up hectors flaw

Answer 8

It is denial of his alleged fate that is H’s great mistake. Disregarding Patroclus’ warning, thinks he is a match for Achilles (Book 16), causing him to keep his army in the field when Achilles returns to battle (Book 18). This is linked directly with his death in Book 22

Question 9

the roles of fate, to dramatize achillies decision not to fight in book 9

Answer 9

The notion that A uniquely has two possible fates which he must choose between gives an extra starkness and significance to his choice in Book 9 not to fight.

Question 10

a possible problem; achillies two fates

Answer 10

The idea that Achilles has two fates (Bk 9) is only related to us by Achilles himself, even though he specifies his mother as his source.
The philosophical problems of having two fates are obvious. What if Achilles is simply deluding himself? This is GRAZIOSI’s (2016) view.
This is of course possible. But is it likely?
Achilles does cite his divine mother as his source for the two fates idea.
His genuinely having two fates has an artistic function (see previous slide).
Achilles never has trouble accepting his fate (contrast with Hector), even when he knows that that fate is going to be death (from Book 18).
In Book 18, Thetis positively foretells Achilles’ death only on the condition that he carries out his plan of fighting to kill Hector.

Question 11

relationship between gods and fate

Answer 11

The invincibility of Fate can make the gods appear the lesser power. But a key episode – Zeus and Hera in Book 16 – shows otherwise.
Zeus wants to spare his son, Sarpedon, from his fate. Hera’s reply suggests that Z really could do this, only that he shouldn’t: if he does, it will cause chaos among the gods, because they will all want to save their sons from their fates. Z gives way to this logic.
Thus, Homer neatly suggests that the gods are superior to fate, yet abide by its wishes, using fate essentially as a rule-book by which the gods must operate to preserve peace in their own community

Question 12

roles of the gods, enforcing fate

Answer 12

Despite their theoretical superiority to fate (see previous slide), in practice the gods enforce the will of fate. Good examples include:
Z’s decision not to save Sarpedon (Book 16);
The scales scene of Book 22, when the gods abide by fate’s decision on Hector’s death without debate.
YET it would be a big mistake to argue that the gods are merely enforcers of fate. That would be to deny their independent wills (obvious: just look at their arguments in Books 1, 4, 16, 24).
In fact, the gods simply choose to enact fate (Zeus, Book 16) for the good of the divine community. They are not just fate’s servants

Question 13

the roles of the gods, driving the plot

Answer 13

The gods are behind many of the key elements in the plot:
Achilles’ anger (Apollo) and the effectiveness of his revenge on Agamemnon (Thetis/Zeus).
The restarting of the war (Book 4, Zeus, Athene, Hera).
Achilles’ Book 9 decision (if we accept Delusion as a goddess).
The death of Patroclus (Book 16 – Apollo).
Achilles’ ability to return to the war (Book 18 – armour, Thetis/Hephaestus).
The death of Hector (Book 22 – Zeus, Athene).
The reconciliation between Priam and Achilles (Book 24).
Does all this make the gods of equal or even greater importance to the story than the human characters?

Question 14

roles of the gods, artistic effect

Answer 14

GRIFFIN (1980): gods add significance to the human action, both glorifying it (the action is worthy of a divine audience) but also humbling it (the limits of mortality are shown up through contrast).
They provide a foil for mortal life and woes. This is clearest in Book 1 (divine reconciliation vs human quarrel). Effect? The tragedy of the human quarrel, but also tragedy of human weakness more generally.
Rounding off the plot: note that both human and divine quarrels are resolved in the same act of reconciliation in Book 24.
Variety. The gods give us a change of scene and character cast.
One could argue that the gods are comic (see final slide) – if so, then one of their functions is to vary the mood, adding interest.

Question 15

problems with the gods

Answer 15

Finding fault with the indignity of Homer’s gods is very common in the history of Homeric scholarship. It went back to the ancient world:
THEAGENES OF RHEGIUM (C6thBC): allegorised divine brawling in Bks 21/22.
HERACLITUS (C1stAD, not the philosopher): also used allegory to explain that Homer was not being ‘irreverent towards the gods’ – a ‘serious charge’.
Those not tempted to allegorise Homer’s gods to let the poet off the hook used their indignity as a proof of Homer’s inadequacy:
SCALIGER (C16th) – thought Hephaestus sweating over his forge undignified.
Another criticism (TERRASSON, C17th): gods are overused, even disrupting human action (e.g., Athene helping Achilles, Bk 22).

Question 16

zeus, griffin

Answer 16

Homer strove to make Zeus ‘remain sublime’, even though he must navigate ‘embarrassments’, such as his debt to Thetis and fear of Hera’s wrath. Is their evidence to support this view?
Griffin accepts that ‘the sublime and the frivolous are mixed in the Homeric gods’, including Zeus. But can we go further: is Zeus in fact a comic figure? And could the same be said of other gods?

Question 17

FATE key passage (book 16 fate as a mechanism for causing tragic effects)

Answer 17

So long as the sun was high in the sky, the volleys of missiles found their mark, and men fell, but when it sank low at that hour when ploughmen unyoke their oxen, the Greeks proved masters of their fate. They dragged Cebriones’ corpse away from the Trojans and, beyond the clash of arms, stripped it of its armour. Then Patroclus was minded to destroy the Trojans. Three times that peer of swift Ares attacked them, shouting his dread war-cry, and each time killed nine men. But when, like a god, you charged at them again, Patroclus, then your fate loomed in sight. For Apollo met you, terrible in combat.

Question 18

FATE key passage (book 16 denal of his alleged fate as the expression of hectors fatal hubris)

Answer 18

But though your strength was ebbing fast, horse-taming Patroclus, yet you answered: ‘Boast, while you can, Hector, for Zeus and Apollo it was who gave you victory. They conquered me: they stripped the armour from my shoulders. If twenty men like you had faced me alone, all would have died at the point of my spear. But Fate the destroyer and Apollo, Leto’s son, have conquered: only then came Euphorbus the mortal, while you are but the third to claim my life. This I tell you: and go brood upon it. You indeed have only a little while to live, even now death approaches and your fixed destiny, to fall at the hands of Achilles, peerless scion of Aeacus.’
With these words death took him, and his spirit, loosed from his limbs, fled down to Hades, bemoaning its fate and leaving youth and manhood behind. But dead though he was, noble Hector still replied: ‘Patroclus, what makes you so sure of my swift destruction? Who knows but Achilles, son of fair-haired Thetis, may be struck by my spear first, and lose his life?’

Question 19

FATE key passage (book 9 achillies 2 fates)

Answer 19

All the fabled peacetime wealth of populous Ilium, before we Greeks arrived, and all the treasure in rocky Pytho, beyond Apollo’s marble threshold, is not worth life itself. Cattle and fine sheep may be taken; tripods and chestnut steeds won, but neither taking nor winning can recall a man’s spirit once the breath has left his lips. My mother, divine silver-footed Thetis, spoke the alternative fates open to me on my way to death. Remain here and fight at the siege of Troy, forgo all home-coming, yet win endless renown; or sail home to my native land, lose fame and glory, but live a long life, and be spared an early end.

Question 20

THE GODS key passage (book 22 the gods enforcing the will of fate)

Answer 20

Every time Hector made a break for the Dardanian Gate hoping to gain the shelter of the solid walls, where the defenders might protect him with their missiles, Achilles would head him off towards the plain, himself keeping the inner track by the walls. Yet, as in a dream where our pursuer cannot catch us nor we escape, Achilles could not overtake Hector, nor could Hector shake him off. Still, could Hector have eluded fate so long, had not Apollo, for the last and final time, come to strengthen him and speed him, and had not Achilles signalled to his men not to loose their deadly missiles at the man, lest he himself might be cheated of the glory? Yet when they reached The Springs for the fourth time, the Father raised his golden scales, and set the deaths of Achilles and horse-taming Hector in the balance, and lifted it on high. Down sank Hector’s lot towards Hades, and Phoebus Apollo left his side, while bright-eyed Athene came to Achilles and standing close, spoke winged words: ‘Glorious Achilles, beloved of Zeus, now you and I will kill Hector, and bring the Greeks great glory. Warlike he may be, but he’ll not escape us, even if Apollo, the Far-Striker, grovels before aegis-bearing Father Zeus. Stop now and catch your breath. I will go and incite him to fight you face to face.’

Question 21

THE GODS key passage (book 1 the gods as comic)

Answer 21

At dawn on the twelfth day, the company of immortal gods, led by Zeus, returned to Olympus. Thetis had not forgotten her promise to her son, and at morning, emerging from the waves, she rose to the broad sky and Olympus. There she found Zeus, he of the far-thundering voice, sitting apart on the highest peak of ridged Olympus. She sank in front of him, clasped his knees with her left arm, raised her right hand to touch his chin, and so petitioned the son of Cronos: ‘Father Zeus, if ever I helped you by word or deed, grant me this wish, honour my son, who is doomed to die young. For Agamemnon the king shows disrespect, arrogantly seizing his rightful prize. Avenge my son, Olympian Zeus, lord of justice; enhance the Trojans’ power, till the Greeks honour and respect my son and make amends.’
Zeus, the cloud-gatherer, made no reply to her words, he sat there silently. But Thetis, still clasping his knees, clung to him and pleaded again: ‘Make me this promise faithfully, and nod your head, or else refuse, for I am powerless, then I shall know how little I am honoured here.’
Zeus, the cloud-lord, deeply troubled, said: ‘This is a sorry business, indeed, and you will force a quarrel with Hera. She will taunt and rile me. As it is, she scolds me endlessly before the other gods, claiming I aid the Trojans in battle. Go now, before she notices, while I think the matter through. Come, I will nod my head, to reassure you, since you immortals know this as my sure pledge; once I give the nod, my word can never be recalled, it proves true and is fulfilled